1. PLATO THE FEMINIST?

2. In thinking about Plato’s remarks on women in Republic V, we should keep in mind the attitudes and practices prevalent in Athens at the time. People who regard Plato as a proto-feminist usually have in mind how sharply Plato’s policies in the ideal state depart from the status quo.  What, if anything, do you know about the place of women in Athenian society during the relevant time period? THE CONTEXT

3. 1.Social interaction. Only a few sorts of women, including priestesses and prostitutes, were allowed to mingle with free men (other than close relatives). 2.Sex/marriage. In Athens women had little say about whom or when they will marry. An Athenian virgin who had intercourse outside marriage may be sold into slavery by her ward. A married women caught in adultery can be punished in any manner short of death. On the other hand, men were allowed to have sex with anyone apart from virgins and married women (even if they were themselves married). 3.Property rights. In Athenian law only men have property rights. 4.Education. In Athenian society women have no access. 5.Work. Limited options included being midwives, wet nurses, and prostitutes. Otherwise work was at home. THE CONTEXT

4. 1.Social interaction. Men & women live together, eat in common dining halls, exercise in the same gymnasium… 2.Sex/marriage. Plato proposes a biased or rigged lottery system as part of a eugenics project. 3.Property rights. Private property is abolished more generally. 4.Education. If women are going to have the same occupations, they need the same education 5.Work. Women have the same opportunities as men. PLATO’S TAKE (OVERVIEW)

5. In the Assemblywomen women take over and eliminate social inequalities based on wealth, age, and beauty. They abolish private property, and women are charged with managing the shared assets. The household/nuclear family is also abolished, along with the sexual mores that go with marriage. Like Plato, Aristophanes envisages a life very different from life in Athens, with an emphasis on common property & family.  The women who take over seem to have a different motive for making these changes than Plato. What’s the difference? ARISTOPHANES & PLATO

6. Aristophanes’ emphasis on equality might suggest that his hypothetical form of life is more in line with feminism than Plato’s. On further reflection, Plato’s departure from the status quo is more radical—and possibly more feminist in character.  Can you think of any way that Plato’s proposal is even more far-reaching? ARISTOPHANES & PLATO

7. Aristophanes doesn’t really do away with the traditional distinction between men’s & women’s work. The idea isn’t so much that women take over traditional male roles as that the traditional female role of household manager/caregiver is expanded from household to polis. By contrast, Plato is insisting that women can do whatever men can do and ought to be trained accordingly. In Republic V his first order of business is to defend this idea. He defends the proposal in the face of objections… ARISTOPHANES & PLATO

8. Throughout this discussion Plato is taking for granted the idea (familiar from Book IV) that each person ought to do the work for which the person is best suited. Women have a different nature from men. If women have a different nature, won’t they be suited to different work?  What’s a reasonable response to this objection? THE MAIN WORRY

9. Let’s grant that men & women differ from one another. The issue at hand is whether men & women differ in some way that is relevant to the division of labor. Cf. the difference between bald men vs. men who are not bald. PLATO’S RESPONSE

10. Person A is better suited by nature to a certain job than B if A is more competent: A can learn the required tasks more quickly and can perform them better. The worry is that men will be better than women at some tasks, and women will be better than men at others. On the assumption that each should be assigned the task to which each is best suited, men and women should be assigned different tasks.  What’s a reasonable response? What’s Plato’s? THE MAIN WORRY REFORMULATED

11. There is no special sphere where women have greater competence. Men can outperform women on average in all tasks. At the same time many women are better than many men in all tasks. So the objection fails. The differences between men and women are not relevant to the division of labor. PLATO’S RESPONSE

12. Plato insists that wives/husbands/children should all be shared/common.  Why might this seem to be a feminist policy? What is Plato’s motivation for this suggestion? ABOLISHMENT OF NUCLEAR FAMILY

13. The unity & stability of the state will be compromised without this sort of communal life.  How does communal life support the unity of the state? PLATO’S CASE FOR COMMUNISM

14. The unity & stability of the state will be compromised without this sort of communal life.  How does communal life support the unity of the state? By minimizing private concerns/feelings, which have a tendency to fragment & divide. PLATO’S CASE FOR COMMUNISM

15. Plato’s emphasis on equal opportunity for women in education and the workplace is certainly forward-looking.  But is this enough for Plato to count as a feminist? What, in your mind, is at the core of a feminist outlook? Do you worry that Plato’s justifications for his policies are incompatible with a feminist outlook? FOR DISCUSSION

16.  Plato thinks women are inferior.  He has no concern for women’s desires/needs.  He has no concern for women’s rights/liberty.  He has no concern for the injustices women suffer.  He is concerned only with usefulness and what if (contrary to fact) women lacked usefulness?  His defense of his policies is utilitarian: he isn’t concerned with women’s rights. These points are much less decisive than they may appear. We will consider each in turn. SOME OBVIOUS WORRIES

17.  Why are questions about the capacities of women somewhat peripheral to the topic of feminism? ALLEGED INFERIORITY

18.  Why are questions about the capacities of women somewhat peripheral to the topic of feminism? Feminism is principally a normative thesis, a thesis about how women ought to be treated. Questions about the relative competence of men and women are questions about how the world is, not about how it ought to be. ALLEGED INFERIORITY

19.  Does it seem right to you that Plato has no concern for women’s desires/needs? NO CONCERNS FOR WOMEN’S DESIRES/NEEDS

20.  Does it seem right to you that Plato has no concern for women’s desires/needs? 519e: “You are forgetting again that it isn’t the law’s concern to make any one class in the city outstandingly happy but to contrive to spread happiness throughout the city…” 456e: “Is there anything better for a city than having the best possible men and women as its citizens?” NO CONCERNS FOR WOMEN’S DESIRES/NEEDS

21.  Why is this worry less than decisive? NO CONCERN FOR WOMEN’S RIGHTS/LIBERTIES

22.  Why is this worry less than decisive? Yes, Plato’s political views are authoritarian & paternalist in character, so he isn’t concerned much about freedom. But three points are worth noting: 1.His attitude here is a general one that applies as much to men as to women. 2.He is concerned to devise laws that secure opportunities for individuals to flourish, and to that extent he is concerned with rights/liberties. 3.Plato rejects liberty because he thinks it leads to mediocrity and he wants people to thrive/be happy. NO CONCERN FOR WOMEN’S RIGHTS/LIBERTIES

23.  Is it fair to Plato to say that he isn’t concerned with addressing injustices to women? NO CONCERN FOR INJUSTICE

24.  Is it fair to Plato to say that he isn’t concerned with addressing injustices to women? Unclear. Plato is telling us what things would be like in a just state. And the ideal state he describes is radically different from how things are in Athens at the time with respect to opportunities for women. NO CONCERN FOR INJUSTICES SUFFERED BY WOMEN AS A GROUP

25.  How might we respond to the worry that Plato’s utilitarian defense of equal opportunity is contingent on women in fact proving to be beneficial in the workplace? CONCERNED ONLY W/USEFULNESS

26.  How might we respond to the worry that Plato’s utilitarian defense of equal opportunity is contingent on women in fact proving to be beneficial in the workplace? Several points: 1.The same point applies to men. 2.The worry is in fact irrelevant because women are obviously competent. 3.Utilitarians can be feminists too! When it comes to philosophy, no one stands out historically more than J. S. Mill. CONCERNED ONLY W/USEFULNESS

27. Act utilitarians have no obvious place for rights (understood as limits on how individuals can be used in pursuit of the best outcome). But feminism is all about women’s rights, right? On the assumption that Plato’s views are utilitarian in spirit, how can he be a feminist?  How might we reply? PLATO’S DEFENSE IS UTILITARIAN

28. Act utilitarians have no obvious place for rights (understood as limits on how individuals can be used in pursuit of the best outcome). But feminism is all about women’s rights, right? On the assumption that Plato’s views are utilitarian in spirit, how can he be a feminist?  How might we reply? Utilitarians defend a way of thinking about the structure of moral justification. Equality plays a central role in this account, and women have an equal moral standing to men! PLATO’S DEFENSE IS UTILITARIAN