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Response to c Questions on VHT60 PAR

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1 Response to 802.15.3c Questions on VHT60 PAR
April 2007 doc.: IEEE /0570r0 July 2008 Response to c Questions on VHT60 PAR Date: Authors: Eldad Perahia, Intel Corporation Eldad Perahia, Intel Corporation

2 April 2007 doc.: IEEE /0570r0 July 2008 Abstract Individual response to c questions (not VHT SG official position) Eldad Perahia, Intel Corporation Eldad Perahia, Intel Corporation

3 July 2008 c feedback – Document 1 Click on link below for embedded file of c questions Eldad Perahia, Intel Corporation

4 Comments from André Bourdoux
July 2008 Comments from André Bourdoux 1) VHT60 must ensure coexistence with other systems in the 60 GHz band. Response: Coexistence of various systems in the 60 GHz band is an important issue to VHT60 The VHT60 PAR Scope proposal specifically calls out coexistence: “Address coexistence with other systems in the band” With further elaboration in the Additional Explanatory Notes: “It is in the best interest of users and the industry to strive for a level of coexistence between wireless systems. VHT will investigate coexistence with other systems in the 60 GHz band.” There has been no discussion in VHT regarding a specific approach Eldad Perahia, Intel Corporation

5 July 2008 2) VHT60 and TG3c should agree on a mechanism to improve co-existence before the final draft of 15.3c is approved. Response: agreed. VHT60 and c should establish regular joint meetings to discuss coexistence 3) VHT60 should reuse the 15.3c PHY as much as possible, preferably the SC PHY Response: In Jan 2008 there was discussion on this topic, with the submission below proposing to use c as the VHT60 PHY Some comments in response to the submission were: 15.3c has 3 PHYs modes and no approved draft, how does VHT coordinate? Does 15.3c support carrier sense? What kind of changes to dot11 MAC will be required to support a dot15 PHY that may not support carrier sense? Would it be reasonable to wait until PHY is defined in c before mandating use of their PHY? Why not wait to bring this concept to the table until after VHT PAR has been approved? Related submission: The VHT60 task group will review the c PHY draft and consider re-using portions that apply to VHT60 PAR if appropriate Eldad Perahia, Intel Corporation

6 4) VHT60 must support the common rate (CR).
July 2008 4) VHT60 must support the common rate (CR). Response: There has been no discussion in VHT Study Group regarding this specific topic. The VHT60 task group will review the c PHY draft and consider re-using portions that apply to VHT60 PAR if appropriate 5) VHT60 should use the same base frequency plan as 15.3c (spacing = 2160 MHz). A finer grid (spacing of 1080 or 540 MHz) should be considered to provide for more channels. Response: There has been no discussion in VHT Study Group regarding this specific topic. Specifics on channel design will be considered by the Task Group. Eldad Perahia, Intel Corporation

7 Proposed VHT Usage models (covering both <6 GHz and 60 GHz):
July 2008 6) VHT60 must define applications and use cases that are sufficiently different from those targeted by TG3c Response: Proposed VHT Usage models (covering both <6 GHz and 60 GHz): WFA proposed usage model categories: Wireless Display In Home Distribution of HDTV and other content Rapid Upload and Download of large files to/from server Backhaul Traffic (e.g. Mesh, Point-to-Point) Campus / Auditorium deployments Manufacturing Floor Automation There was an individual attempt to map the WFA usage models to operating bands, but no official VHT position Other proposed usage models: High speed cable replacement (HDMI, monitor) Wireless docking Sync and Go Wireless local area networking Eldad Perahia, Intel Corporation

8 Eckhard Grass and Chang-Soon Choi
July 2008 Eckhard Grass and Chang-Soon Choi 1. Coexistence It is important to ensure good coexistence between .11 VHT and .15 TG3c devices in 60GHz-band. Response: Coexistence of various systems in the 60 GHz band is an important issue to VHT60 The VHT60 PAR Scope proposal specifically calls out coexistence: “Address coexistence with other systems in the band” With further elaboration in the Additional Explanatory Notes: “It is in the best interest of users and the industry to strive for a level of coexistence between wireless systems. VHT will investigate coexistence with other systems in the 60 GHz band.” There has been no discussion in VHT regarding a specific approach To facilitate it, a 60GHz VHT channelization plan shall fundamentally follow the TG3c channelization plan which is already fixed. Response: There has been no discussion in VHT Study Group regarding this specific topic. Specifics on channel design will be considered by the Task Group. Eldad Perahia, Intel Corporation

9 July 2008 2. Channelization plan The main application of .11 is point-to-multipoint communication from an access point (AP) to many stations (STA). The number of maximum STA that one AP covers is much larger than that of .15. To cope with it, each channel of VHT shall have several independent narrow sub-channels within the limit of channel bandwidth defined by TG3c. It is apparent that not every country has the unlicensed 7GHz bandwidth in the 60GHz-band. Europe Unions will most likely have 4GHz bandwidth. China already announced the 5GHz bandwidth ranging from 59GHz to 64GHz. To have reasonable number of independent channels in all regions, this sub-channelization shall be used. Response: There has been no discussion in VHT Study Group regarding this specific topic. Specifics on channel design will be considered by the Task Group. Eldad Perahia, Intel Corporation

10 July 2008 3. Dual-band operation
To improve link performance and adaptability, the dual-band operation of <6GHz and 60GHz needs to be investigated in VHT although not included in TG3c. Response: The VHT60 PAR scope proposal specifically calls out multiple PHY operation: “Enable fast session transfer between PHYs” With further elaboration in the Additional Explanatory Notes: “Fast session transfer between 60 GHz and 2.4/5 GHz bands will enable typical WLAN coverage for multi-band devices. However, this does not imply that devices must be multi-band. The amendment will specify a mechanism for multi-band devices.” Various concepts discussed Split PHY preamble between <6GHz and 60 GHz Use 11n as a rate fall back to 60 GHz Use 11n and 60 GHz in an over-lay/under-lay topology to provide typical WLAN coverage Use MAC extensions to route appropriate traffic to 60 GHz Related submissions: Eldad Perahia, Intel Corporation

11 4. Data packet transmission
July 2008 4. Data packet transmission The .11 VHT should be designed for data packet transmission. It is neither required nor useful to have an independent PHY mode supporting video streaming applications as in TG3c. Response: there has been no discussion in VHT regarding this specific topic. However, discussion in VHT regarding applications have included data packet transmission and video streaming. How this maps to PHY modes will be addressed by the Task Group Eldad Perahia, Intel Corporation

12 July 2008 Shu Kato 1. Coexistence: VHT60 must ensure coexistence with other systems in the 60 GHz band. Response Coexistence of various systems in the 60 GHz band is an important issue to VHT60 The VHT60 PAR Scope proposal specifically calls out coexistence: “Address coexistence with other systems in the band” With further elaboration in the Additional Explanatory Notes: “It is in the best interest of users and the industry to strive for a level of coexistence between wireless systems. VHT will investigate coexistence with other systems in the 60 GHz band.” There has been no discussion in VHT regarding a specific approach Eldad Perahia, Intel Corporation

13 2. Channelization: VHT60 should have the channel plan defined in TG3C
July 2008 2. Channelization: VHT60 should have the channel plan defined in TG3C Response: There has been no discussion in VHT Study Group regarding this specific topic. Specifics on channel design will be considered by the Task Group. 3. Common rate: VHT60 must support the common rate (CR) defined in TG3C Response: There has been no discussion in VHT Study Group regarding this specific topic. The VHT60 task group will review the c PHY draft and consider re-using portions that apply to VHT60 PAR if appropriate Eldad Perahia, Intel Corporation

14 July 2008 4. PHY: VHT60 should reuse the 15.3c PHY as much as possible unless there is new PHY necessity for new applications to support Response: In Jan 2008 there was discussion on this topic, with the submission below proposing to use c as the VHT60 PHY Some comments in response to the submission were: 15.3c has 3 PHYs modes and no approved draft, how does VHT coordinate? Does 15.3c support carrier sense? What kind of changes to dot11 MAC will be required to support a dot15 PHY that may not support carrier sense? Would it be reasonable to wait until PHY is defined in c before mandating use of their PHY? Why not wait to bring this concept to the table until after VHT PAR has been approved? Related submission: The VHT60 task group will review the c PHY draft and consider re-using portions that apply to VHT60 PAR if appropriate Eldad Perahia, Intel Corporation

15 July 2008 5. Common rate: VHT60 must support the common rate (CR) defined in TG3C Response: There has been no discussion in VHT Study Group regarding this specific topic. The VHT60 task group will review the c PHY draft and consider re-using portions that apply to VHT60 PAR if appropriate Eldad Perahia, Intel Corporation

16 Proposed VHT Usage models (covering both <6 GHz and 60 GHz):
July 2008 6. Segregation: VHT60 must define applications and usage models that are different from what defined by TG3C Response: Proposed VHT Usage models (covering both <6 GHz and 60 GHz): WFA proposed usage model categories: Wireless Display In Home Distribution of HDTV and other content Rapid Upload and Download of large files to/from server Backhaul Traffic (e.g. Mesh, Point-to-Point) Campus / Auditorium deployments Manufacturing Floor Automation There was an individual attempt to map the WFA usage models to operating bands, but no official VHT position Other proposed usage models: High speed cable replacement (HDMI, monitor) Wireless docking Sync and Go Wireless local area networking Eldad Perahia, Intel Corporation

17 802.15.3c feedback – Document 2 July 2008
Individual response in Presented during June 19 joint conference call Minutes of the joint call (section 11) Click on link to the right for embedded file of c questions Eldad Perahia, Intel Corporation

18 Question 1: Coexistence
April 2007 doc.: IEEE /0570r0 July 2008 Question 1: Coexistence How does VHT60 ensure coexistence with other systems in the 60 GHz band? Response Coexistence of various systems in the 60 GHz band is an important issue to VHT60 The VHT60 PAR Scope proposal specifically calls out coexistence: “Address coexistence with other systems in the band” With further elaboration in the Additional Explanatory Notes: “It is in the best interest of users and the industry to strive for a level of coexistence between wireless systems. VHT will investigate coexistence with other systems in the 60 GHz band.” There has been no discussion in VHT regarding a specific approach VHT 60 GHz PAR and 5C’s: Eldad Perahia, Intel Corporation Eldad Perahia, Intel Corporation

19 Question 2: Channelization
April 2007 doc.: IEEE /0570r0 July 2008 Question 2: Channelization What channel plan does VHT60 have? The same channel plan defined in TG3C (2160 MHz per channel and 4 channels over 9 GHz) or different? Response: There has been no discussion in VHT Study Group regarding this specific topic. Specifics on channel design will be considered by the Task Group. Eldad Perahia, Intel Corporation Eldad Perahia, Intel Corporation

20 April 2007 doc.: IEEE /0570r0 July 2008 Question 3: Common rate Does VHT60 plan to support the common rate (CR) defined in TG3C? Response: There has been no discussion in VHT Study Group regarding this specific topic. The VHT60 task group will review the c PHY draft and consider re-using portions that apply to VHT60 PAR if appropriate Eldad Perahia, Intel Corporation Eldad Perahia, Intel Corporation

21 April 2007 doc.: IEEE /0570r0 July 2008 Question 4: PHY Does VHT60 plan to reuse the 15.3c PHY or to define new PHY? Response: In Jan 2008 there was discussion on this topic, with the submission below proposing to use c as the VHT60 PHY Some comments in response to the submission were: 15.3c has 3 PHYs modes and no approved draft, how does VHT coordinate? Does 15.3c support carrier sense? What kind of changes to dot11 MAC will be required to support a dot15 PHY that may not support carrier sense? Would it be reasonable to wait until PHY is defined in c before mandating use of their PHY? Why not wait to bring this concept to the table until after VHT PAR has been approved? Related submission: The VHT60 task group will review the c PHY draft and consider re-using portions that apply to VHT60 PAR if appropriate Eldad Perahia, Intel Corporation Eldad Perahia, Intel Corporation

22 Question 5: Applications
April 2007 doc.: IEEE /0570r0 July 2008 Question 5: Applications Does VHT60 plan to define new applications and usage models other than what defined in TG3c? Response: Proposed VHT Usage models (covering both <6 GHz and 60 GHz): WFA proposed usage model categories: Wireless Display In Home Distribution of HDTV and other content Rapid Upload and Download of large files to/from server Backhaul Traffic (e.g. Mesh, Point-to-Point) Campus / Auditorium deployments Manufacturing Floor Automation There was an individual attempt to map the WFA usage models to operating bands, but no official VHT position Other proposed usage models: High speed cable replacement (HDMI, monitor) Wireless docking Sync and Go Wireless local area networking Related submissions: Eldad Perahia, Intel Corporation Eldad Perahia, Intel Corporation

23 Question 6: Channel models
April 2007 doc.: IEEE /0570r0 July 2008 Question 6: Channel models Does VHT60 plan to work on channel models for the applications defined newly? Response There was an initial discussion on developing channel models during a conference call on January 31, 2008 There was a suggestion to start with the c models and also to look at the 60 GHz EU project IST-broadway There have been several follow-on submissions outlining the following issues NLOS delay profile NLOS pathloss model Beamforming - AoA and AoD properties Gain reduction factor Human Body Blockage Effects Related submissions: Eldad Perahia, Intel Corporation Eldad Perahia, Intel Corporation

24 Question 7: Sub-channels
April 2007 doc.: IEEE /0570r0 July 2008 Question 7: Sub-channels Does VHT have any plan to have sub-channels which have much lower channel bandwidth than 2160 MHz? Response: Response: There has been no discussion in VHT Study Group regarding this specific topic. Specifics on channel design will be considered by the Task Group. Eldad Perahia, Intel Corporation Eldad Perahia, Intel Corporation

25 Question 8: Dual band operation
April 2007 doc.: IEEE /0570r0 July 2008 Question 8: Dual band operation Does VHT have any plan to have dual band operation: one is at 60 GHz band and the other in lower than 6 GHz? Response: The VHT60 PAR scope proposal specifically calls out multiple PHY operation: “Enable fast session transfer between PHYs” With further elaboration in the Additional Explanatory Notes: “Fast session transfer between 60 GHz and 2.4/5 GHz bands will enable typical WLAN coverage for multi-band devices. However, this does not imply that devices must be multi-band. The amendment will specify a mechanism for multi-band devices.” Various concepts discussed Split PHY preamble between <6GHz and 60 GHz Use 11n as a rate fall back to 60 GHz Use 11n and 60 GHz in an over-lay/under-lay topology to provide typical WLAN coverage Use MAC extensions to route appropriate traffic to 60 GHz Related submissions: Eldad Perahia, Intel Corporation Eldad Perahia, Intel Corporation

26 Question 9: Data packet transmission
April 2007 doc.: IEEE /0570r0 July 2008 Question 9: Data packet transmission Does VHT60 plan to have a designated packet transmission mode but not independent PHY mode supporting video streaming? Response: there has been no discussion in VHT regarding this specific topic. However, discussion in VHT regarding applications have included data packet transmission and video streaming. How this maps to PHY modes will be addressed by the Task Group Eldad Perahia, Intel Corporation Eldad Perahia, Intel Corporation

27 July 2008 c feedback – Document 3 Click on link below for embedded file of c questions Eldad Perahia, Intel Corporation

28 I. For Better Co-existence
July 2008 I. For Better Co-existence Based on what achieved by TG3c so far, “TG3c” suggests for VHT60 to have following statements in VHT60 PAR: • Same channelization: 2160 MHz per channel x 4 (channels) over 9 GHz, • Common mode for all PNC capable devices, • Some etiquette rule which will allow to open a channel for new devices to be able to establish communications links by doing something such as backing off, • Investigate applicability of the PHY developed by TG3c with the highest priority. Eldad Perahia, Intel Corporation

29 July 2008 Response There has been no discussion in VHT Study Group regarding these specific topics. The VHT60 task group will review the c PHY draft and consider re-using portions that apply to VHT60 PAR if appropriate Eldad Perahia, Intel Corporation

30 July 2008 II. Uniqueness of PAR It is mandatory for new TG to have a UNIQUE PAR and “TG3c” suggests following: • Need to compare the proposed PAR with the existing PAR in the same frequency band (TG3c), • Need to identify differences/uniqueness: must be stated clearly, The VHT PAR (11-08/223r5), part says: "VHT will be the only technology that can allow a corporate or home user to roam from high throughput (60 GHz) dense cells to wider area networks (e.g a/b/g) in a seamless manner ---". This "seamless" roaming feature may be the only perceived advantage that VHT has over 3C. Although the current 3C MAC has “handover capability” Eldad Perahia, Intel Corporation

31 July 2008 Response Two aspects of the PAR ensure distinct identity from c Enable fast session transfer between PHYs Maintain the user experience Fast session transfer provides seamless rate fall back between VHT and n for multi-band devices Provides expected WLAN coverage from combo /5 GHz devices As an amendment to , VHT maintains the user experience maintaining the network architecture of the system E.g. infrastructure basic service set, extended service set, access point, station Reuse and maintain backward compatibility to management plane E.g. association, authentication, security, measurement, capability exchange, MIB Eldad Perahia, Intel Corporation

32 III. VHT60 PAR: may need further clarification
July 2008 III. VHT60 PAR: may need further clarification These including: 1. “Maintain the user experience” (in Scope) Response: As an amendment to , VHT maintains the user experience maintaining the network architecture of the system E.g. infrastructure basic service set, extended service set, access point, station Reuse and maintain backward compatibility to management plane E.g. association, authentication, security, measurement, capability exchange, MIB Eldad Perahia, Intel Corporation

33 Proposed VHT Usage models (covering both <6 GHz and 60 GHz):
July 2008 2. Applications differences from those of TG3c Response: Proposed VHT Usage models (covering both <6 GHz and 60 GHz): WFA proposed usage model categories: Wireless Display In Home Distribution of HDTV and other content Rapid Upload and Download of large files to/from server Backhaul Traffic (e.g. Mesh, Point-to-Point) Campus / Auditorium deployments Manufacturing Floor Automation There was an individual attempt to map the WFA usage models to operating bands, but no official VHT position Other proposed usage models: High speed cable replacement (HDMI, monitor) Wireless docking Sync and Go Wireless local area networking Eldad Perahia, Intel Corporation

34 3. Transmission range 4. Others
July 2008 3. Transmission range Response: Proof of concept systems in 60 GHz are available today. There have been public demonstrations of systems capable of delivering more than 1 Gbps throughput at over 10 m non line of sight. Link budget analysis has been introduced to the Study Group. 4. Others Response: More specifics are needed in order to respond Eldad Perahia, Intel Corporation


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