Session 2 – Dinosaurs and the Bible In this second session we will tackle one of the most asked questions in the creation vs. evolution debate: “Where do the dinosaurs fit into the Bible?” We will look at the evidence that dinosaurs and man coexisted here on planet earth, and evidence that some of them may still be alive today (although rare).

Is that actually true, though? The topic of dinosaurs is (by far) one of the most popular topics within Creation vs. Evolution. We have all heard the line over and over again when hearing about dinosaurs: “Millions and millions of years ago”. Is that actually true, though?

Believe it or not, the word “dinosaur” History of Dinosaurs Word “Dinosaur coined Believe it or not, the word “dinosaur” is a new word. Many words have been around far longer than “dinosaur” that you would think should come later: “Computer” “Locomotive” “Rocket”

All these words were around and used in an 1828 dictionary before the word “dinosaur” was invented. The word “dinosaur” was added to the dictionary in 1841! The first dinosaur fossil discovered (documented) was in the early 1800s. Before that, bones had been found in history, but not pieced together like today.

That would mean if dinosaurs did exist throughout history (because that name recently was created), they would have to be called something else! Dragons Dragons There is overwhelming evidence that dinosaurs throughout history were called dragons, and did exist alongside people. Before the word dinosaur was invented, these large reptiles were known as Dragons or Serpents (serpent originally meant any reptile with a long neck and long tail) although many other more specific or local names were used for varieties. (Cockatrice, Basilisk, Knuckers, Gargouille, Tarasque, Grendel). The history of the world is filled with human encounters with dragons. Cities were named after the people who slayed dragons (Krakow Poland). People were venerated for slaying dragons (Saints). Image source: Creative Commons License http://www.flickr.com/photos/astrangerinthealps/4864232725/

One line of evidence for dinosaurs and people existing together comes from the many examples of dinosaur drawings or figurines that were made before we ever pieced together the fossils. Many people will try to debate these discoveries (because it completely disproves their theory). We will deal with as much as we can in this session.

Eventually, over 33,000 ceramic figurines were found near El Toro. These figurines have become the object of great debate; many people think it’s a fraud, and many people think the investigations done showed they weren’t. In 1945, Waldemar Julsrud, a German immigrant and archeologist, discovered clay figurines buried at the foot of El Toro Mountain in Mexico.  Eventually, over 33,000 ceramic figurines were found near El Toro.

Similar artifacts found in the area are identified with the Pre-classical Chupicuaro Culture (800 BC to 200 AD) and many claim these figurines are from this time. From 1945-1946, Carlos Perea was director of archeology (in this area) for the National Museum of Anthropology in Mexico City. He said the dig was unauthorized, but never questioned it being authentic.

(This is the reason people claim) The Mexican Government sent down four archeologists to investigate, and after excavating a different nearby site, six weeks down they found similar figurines and concluded that the find was authentic. Three weeks later, they changed their minds and said it was a fraud because of the figurines showing man and dinosaurs. (This is the reason people claim)

They found 43 figurines under the house. In 1955 Charles Hapgood, professor of anthropology at the University of New Hampshire, and Earl Stanley Gardner (former district attorney for Los Angeles, CA) also came to investigate the scene. They falsified the claim that the figurines were manufactured by excavating under the house of the chief of Police, which was built 25 years before Julsrud arrived in Mexico. They found 43 figurines under the house.

Three radiocarbon tests were performed (Isotopes Incorporated of New Jersey) resulting in dates of 1640 BC, 4530 BC and 1110 BC. Eighteen samples had thermoluminescent testing by the University of Pennsylvania, all of which gave dates of approximately 2500 BC. These results were later withdrawn when they learned of figurines showing dinosaurs and man (this again is the claim).

Other claims have been made in attempts to show this was a fraud. We could focus on this topic for an entire class, but we still wouldn’t be able to prove either way with 100% certainty. Those who believe in evolution have to reject this find, no matter what.

Pictures of dragons on the ancient walls of Babylon Why would the Babylonians know what dragons (Dinosaurs) look like if they never had seen them? It’s obviously a reptile-like animal.

The Apocrypha contains two extra chapters in Daniel, and in chapter 14 there is a story of a dragon in Babylon. Daniel 14:23-27: “Here was a great dragon which the Babylonians worshipped too. The king said to Daniel, 'Are you going to tell me that this is made of bronze? Look, it is alive; it eats and drinks; you cannot deny that this is a living god; worship it, then.‘  Daniel replied, 'I will worship the Lord my God; he is the living God.

Not scripture, but could be history still. “With your permission, Your Majesty, without using either sword or club, I shall kill this dragon.‘ 'You have my permission,' said the king. Whereupon, Daniel took some pitch, some fat and some hair and boiled them up together, rolled the mixture into balls and fed them to the dragon; the dragon swallowed them and burst. Daniel said, 'Now look at the sort of thing you worship!‘” Not scripture, but could be history still.

Many similar stories exist from Greeks. Alexander the Great In 330 BC, after  Alexander the Great  invaded India, he brought back reports of seeing a great hissing dragon living in a cave, which people were worshiping as a god. Many similar stories exist from Greeks.

The Nile mosaic of Palestrina is a late Hellenistic floor mosaic depicting the Nile in its passage from Ethiopia to the Mediterranean. A consensus on the dating of the work is slowly emerging. Paul G. P. Meyboom suggests a date shortly before the reign of Sulla (ca. 100 BC) and treats the mosaic as an early evidence for the spread of Egyptian cults in Italy.

Humans hunting a dinosaur. Image source: CreationWiki http://creationwiki.org/Ancient_dinosaur_depiction

Sauropod Petroglyph Havasupai Canyon in Arizona. Why are they drawing dinosaurs along with other real animals?

The Legend of Beowulf Beowulf lived from 495–583 AD. He killed several sea reptiles and a terrestrial dragon called a grendel. He lost his life from wounds received while fighting a flying reptile that may have been a giant pterosaur. 

Angkor Wat in Cambodia 12th century Stegosaurus depiction at the Ta Prohm Temple near Angkor Wat in Cambodia. Built for the king Suryavarman II in the early 12th century as his state temple and part of his capital city. Image and info source: CreationWiki (Creative Commons) http://creationwiki.org/Stegosaur Angkor Wat in Cambodia 12th century

Romans killing dragons in Egypt What happened to the dinosaur that survived the flood. Most of the accounts or depictions of dragons are about their slaying. Why were they killed by people? Caption reads in Latin: Ecquis in Aegypto cris ta et tergo eße Dracones. English translation:? "Is there anyone who in Egypt shouts and reverses they Dragons“. (Aegyptus was the Roman province of Egypt, which was established in 30 BC.) Image source: CreationWiki (public domain) http://creationwiki.org/Ancient_dinosaur_depiction Romans killing dragons in Egypt

Ica stones found in Ica Peru

The Ica stones of Peru were brought to light in the first half of the 20th century as a result of the overflowing of the Ica River. This flood caused the eroding of a mountainside, which exposed a cave. The cave had many of these stones in it. There are a total of 16,000 stones in existence. 11,000 were amassed by Dr Javier Cabrera, former professor of medicine at the University of Lima, and displayed in his museum.

The piece of pottery (right), displayed in the Museum of the Nation in Lima, Peru (Museo de la Nación), comes from the Moche culture, which flourished between A.D. 400 and 1100 and shows a picture of a dragon/dinosaur.

Bishop Bell, who died in 1496, is buried in the foundation of the famous Carlisle Cathedral. The brass engravings around the grave show several animals, some of which appear to be dinosaurs, like a long-necked sauropod and a horned ceratopsian.

Are there dinosaurs alive today? There may still be a few survivors around today, most of which would be in water. Loch Ness Monster Thousands of people have seen this monster, that is often described just as a plesiosaurus.

A strange sea creature, said to resemble the Loch Ness Monster, has been reported off the coast of Cornwall in south-west England, according to London’s Daily Mail. Many people throughout history have claimed to see this type of monster here.

Lake Champlain Monster There have been over 300 reported sightings. Champ or Champy is the name given to a reputed lake monster living in  Lake Champlain. Two Native American tribes living in the area near Lake Champlain, the Iroquois and the Abenaki, had legends about such a creature. The Abenaki called it "Tatoskok.  There have been over 300 reported sightings.

An early account come from French explorer Samuel de Champlain who claimed to have spotted the creature as he was fighting the Iroquois on the bank of the lake. The first media-reported sighting came in 1883 when Sheriff Nathan H. Mooney claimed that he had seen a “…gigantic water serpent about 50 yards away” from where he was on the shore.

According to his story, he was so close that he could see “round white spots inside its mouth” and that “the creature appeared to be about 25 to 30 feet in length”. Mooney’s sighting caused a lot of others to come forward with their stories of seeing Champ. (50 years before the Loch Ness monster debate.)

1981 — Port Henry, NY declares their waters a safe haven for Champ Not only have there been hundreds of sightings, laws now protect Champ. 1981 — Port Henry, NY declares their waters a safe haven for Champ 1982 — State of Vermont passes a House Resolution protecting Champ 1983 — In New York, both the State Assembly and the State Senate pass resolutions protecting Champ

Ogopogo is the name given to a lake monster reported to live in Okanagan Lake in British Columbia, Canada. Ogopogo is often described as dark and multi-humped, with green, black, brown or gray skin. The head is said to look like that of a snake, sheep, horse, seal or even an alligator. 

There is probably more evidence for this sea monster than any other. For cryptozoologists like John Kirk of the British Columbia Scientific Cryptozoology Club, "The catalogue of films and video of Ogopogo are more numerous and of better quality than anything I have personally seen at Loch Ness and I believe that several of them are very persuasive that a large, living, unknown creature inhabits the lake." There is probably more evidence for this sea monster than any other.

Over the past 150 years, there have been many reports of sightings in a remote area of central Africa of a swamp-dwelling animal known as ‘mokele-mbembe’. The imprints of clawed feet and other trail marks in the jungle around the swamps clearly show evidence of a large, heavy creature that is not a crocodile, hippopotamus, or elephant.

Witnesses who have seen this monster describe (and draw it) looking like a sauropod dinosaur known to us by its fossil skeletons—similar in shape to a small Apatosaurus. You can show the natives pictures of an Apatosaurus and they will identify it as Mokele-mbembe.

Science has shown dinosaurs lived recently

Soft tissue has been found in dinosaur bones! Soft tissue can only survive for 10,000 years.

We will spend much more time looking at soft tissue discoveries and the debate associated with it when we have our class on biological evolution. To finish up, let’s look at what the Bible says (if anything) about dinosaurs. Are there dinosaurs talked about in the Bible? If Genesis 1:20-25 is true, dinosaurs would have to be created on the fifth and sixth day of creation, which means they lived with man.

forth an adder, and its fruit will be a Job 41:19: “Out of his mouth (Leviathan) go flaming torches; sparks of fire leap forth.” Isaiah 14:29: “Rejoice not, O Philistia, all of you, that the rod that struck you is broken, for from the serpent's root will come forth an adder, and its fruit will be a  flying fiery serpent.” Is it possible to have a fiery serpent? Dragons that can breath fire? Yes.

We see things like this already in the animal kingdom

Job 40:15-20: “Behold, Behemoth, which I made as I made you; he eats grass like an ox. Behold, his strength in his loins, and his power in the muscles of his belly. He makes his tail stiff like a cedar; the sinews of his thighs are knit together. His bones are tubes of bronze, his limbs like bars of iron. “He is the first of the works of God; let him who made him bring near his sword! For the mountains yield food for him where all the wild beasts play.”

The largest dinosaur fossil ever found was a titanosaur The largest dinosaur fossil ever found was a titanosaur. Based on its huge thigh bones, it was 40m (130ft) long and 20m (65ft) tall. Weighing in at 77 tonnes, it was as heavy as 14 African elephants.

What happened to the dinosaurs then? They went on the ark. But the VAST majority of the dinosaurs were killed in the flood. After the flood there are many things that could have caused them to mostly go extinct. For example, the change in environment, being hunted by humans or other animals, food supply shortage, disease, etc.

Memory Verse Revelation 4:11: “Worthy are you, our Lord and God, to receive glory and honor and power, for you created all things, and by your will they existed and were created.”